Women, Sport, and Film Course

Sponsored by the Department of Athletics and Physical Education at Bryn Mawr College, with support from the Center for Science In Society at Bryn Mawr College and the Serendip website.

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FORUM ARCHIVE

WEEK 2

Name:  Amy Campbell
Username:  acampbel@brynamwr.edu
Subject:  Bend It Like Beckham
Date:  2004-02-05 17:02:54
Message Id:  7995
Comments:
React/Respond

How does sport reflect the tensions between tradition and modernity, or the masculine and the feminine.

Which character do you most identify with? Why?


Name:  Jessie
Username:  Anonymous
Subject:  tradition/modernity
Date:  2004-02-07 16:59:41
Message Id:  8014
Comments:
The tensions between tradition and modernity I thought were really well portrayed in one of the ending sequences, when Jessie was playing in the final game while her sister was getting married. By juxaposing the two events, the film placed them in firm opposition. Substituting Jessie's family for Jessie's opponents (as blockers? I'm not soccer savvy) just before Jessie made the score that would win her side the game heightened this antagonistic feel.

I think the film, by portraying Jessie and her sister in such polarity, and aligning one with tradition and one with modernity, was very progressive in some ways, and not so progressive in other ways. In one way, the film was progressive in that both women "achieved their goal," and that the less traditional woman was glorified over the more stereoypically feminine sister. But on the other hand, it still portrayed sports as something outside of and in contradiction to femininity/tradition. The film upheld a lot of stereotypes about women and sports by placing the sporty women in such a strict category separate from the rest of the women.

Ultimately, I think the film still had an empowering message. But I also think that images of women, particularly non-stereotypical women, have to be extremely coded in mainstream cinema, and that perhaps the strong oppositions/antagonism built up in the film are a result of that coding.


Name:  Heather Price
Username:  hprice@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-07 19:00:15
Message Id:  8017
Comments:
I think this movie did a good job addressing many of the modern stereotypes (and well, problems) with women in sports. The fact that Jules' short hair and way of dress were seen as so "masculine" and confused by her mother as, well, "lesbian" (but, really, how DO you classify that as far as looks go?) were really kind of disturbing. Especially because in the film, she was the skinniest one (meaning that she isn't really muscley or anything) and was the one always running around in a sports bra. I don't see that as unfemine at all. I think that now, especially in America, this "sporty" look has become part of the feminine ideal. I know a lot of guys who have said the a woman always looks hottest when she's wearing "gym clothes."

Maybe it's because i'm a title 9 baby, but i don't think there's anything unfeminine about sports. Especially in that film. Whenever they'd score a goal they'd hug and scream and dance, just as you'd expect from women. I really appreciated that aspect of the film, because they never lost their femininity. I loved the part after the championship game when they were all dressing Jessie and playing with her clothes. It was really cute and showed how they were a TEAM and helped each other out. It's not like any other sports film where there are men and there's always this conflict about some guy getting a big head because he's better than everyone else. They never lost the sense of TEAM throughout the film, even when Jessie and Jules were fighting. (that, in and of itself, would NEVER happen on a men's team, by the way)

I didn't really identify with anyone in the movie except for the fact that Jessie's family looked at her as "unfeminine." I get that a lot, but that's mostly because all my friends growing up were boys and i like playing with my car. :)


Name:  Kat Macdonald
Username:  kmacdona@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-08 17:24:16
Message Id:  8037
Comments:
-How does sport reflect the tensions between tradition and modernity, or the masculine and the feminine.


I found the dynamic between Jess and her guy friends in the park to be very interesting. They knew she was talented, and welcomed her playing with them, but they still felt the need to poke fun at her gender and her ability to play (as determined by her gender). Could it be a part of everyday ribbing (which I think we can all agree is a very common male behavior)? Could it be in response to the emasculation she represents by her presence and her ability?


-Which character do you most identify with? Why?


I'm not sure I identify on any personal level with any of them. The film _made_ me identify with Jess, but that was because Jess was the main character and so was given the most air-time (and the most chances to create empathy with the audience). But beyond that...


Name:  Jenna Rosania
Username:  jrosania@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-08 23:21:52
Message Id:  8052
Comments:
In Bend it Like Beckham, there was definite tension between the social expectations of a women in Indian society and Western society, but even more complex, a women in Western society and a women in Western society who wants to excel in sports. Jess's situation was even more compelling than the usual overcoming of the anti-feminist attitude that women can encounter in sports, because she dealt with that from two different fronts. It was only through her skill as well as the dedication of the other girls on her team that led to the creation of a girl's soccer team in the first place, so to call the English society she was also exposed to modern is a bit of a stretch. By exceling in soccer despite the intese opposition, she is creating modernity and an attitude that women can definitely acheive what men can in sports and also manage to keep what is integral to what has made you who you are intact. What makes the end of the movie a true vistory for Jess is that she participated in her sister's wedding as well as the soccer game, and she kept her respect for the traditions that she was raised with while and therby resolved this tension, or at least compromised to ease it.

I don't think I really identified with any of the characters, because I've never had to do something that was totally and unquestionably against the values or traditions I was raised with, nor were my parents completely lacking in understanding about a choice I've made, nor have I ever experienced any ethnic prejudice, aside from being called a gringa in Mexico. I have as many issues as the next person, but I've never experienced anything relating to those in this movie.


Name:  Dustin Raup
Username:  Anonymous
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-09 01:07:44
Message Id:  8058
Comments:
Sport is a pastime based on growth. There's always a new level, be it a new record or a new stunt. Thus it is a microcosm of the conflict between tradition and modernity. While the rules remain, there's always the new thing. There's always the controversy over whether or not the new shoes should be banned because they give an unfair advantag over traditional shoes. The movie showed this by juxtaposing Jes' familial expectations and her athletic self.

I identify very strongly with Jules. First of all, my mother always wanted me to be girly whenj I was off the field. All of her criticism toward Jes I recognized as things I was told growing up. At the same time, I had a supportive father like hers. In addition, I had the "lesbian" stigma on my head with my parents. The amount of alienation experienced between her true self and her parents is all too well mirrored in my more sporty days.


Name:  Rachel Robbins
Username:  rrobbins@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend It
Date:  2004-02-09 01:59:59
Message Id:  8059
Comments:
React/Respond
How does sport reflect the tensions between tradition and modernity, or the masculine and the feminine.

Which character do you most identify with? Why?


I think that one of the palpable ways in which sport reflects the tensions between tradition and modernity is regarding race. --especially in the United States, which is where my orientation and frame of reference is largely based. Tradidionally because of the US history of slavery, and objectification, most (and to a large extent exclusively) the only place where black people historically could obtain success or recognition was either as an entertainer or as an athelete. This tradition of exclusion from professional sport is similar to the exclusion that the father experienced in 'Bend It Like Beckham.' I have been trying to think of the reason why I am still bothered by the black presence in professional sports, when the players are making top dollar for their ability talent and skill. What I have come to is that even though there have been major advancements as far as segregation based on race and gender, that there are still 'major hurdles' to overcome as far as the coaching, managing and ownership of sports teams. Also, because this inclusion comes from a place of being intentionally kept out (either by gender or by race), and from a history of oppression, there can never be full equality from historical inequality. At least not in my mind. As far as I'm concerned, if you are 'let in' after the formation of or inception of something, then even though there might be access to similar or the same resources, the fact that it was not formed for you will always be present in the doing of the thing.

Anyway, my favorite characters were the older Indian women, and the people at the wedding party. As a visual artist, I think that the colors, costumes, and cinematography of the wedding scenes were the most beautiful to watch. I liked some of the scenes with the team practicing, but I think that they could have been orchestrated more interestingly, and there could have been more engaging camera work.


Name:  Sarah Kim
Username:  skim@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend It Like Beckham
Date:  2004-02-09 19:42:32
Message Id:  8075
Comments:
Well, I thought that the movie was great! I thought it addressed SO many important issues and did it in a fun, lighthearted manner. The tensions between the traditional characters and the modern characters was very reflective of what's currently happening in society. I think a lot of first generation parents have trouble communicating with their children who grow up in such a liberated environment. I thought the homosexuality issue was important too, and it was so funny when she said "You're gay? But you're Indian!" And when I thought about it, I don't know any Indian people who are gay...

But I don't really feel like I truly identified with any of the characters. Not that I didn't empathize with them, but I didn't feel any real connection with one in particular. Actually, to tell you the truth, the character I identify the most with might be the Indian girls who were sitting by the side of the field and commenting on the hot bodies of the guys who were playing soccer without their shirts on. :)


Name:  Amy Campbell
Username:  acampbel@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  next response
Date:  2004-02-10 11:21:40
Message Id:  8093
Comments:
Great respones - hope you are enjoying thinking and sharing your thoughts with the 'team'!

Both Jess and Julie are passionate about playing soccer-and don't see their participation in gender terms yet their frinds and families relate to their participation through the lens of gender and in the case of Julie's mother, sexual orientation. Why does sport heighten the conversation re: gender and orientation for women and not for men? Are there other places in society this happens?


Name:  kmacdona
Username:  kmacdona@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-10 19:43:58
Message Id:  8107
Comments:
Why does sport heighten the conversation re: gender and orientation for women and not for men? Are there other places in society this happens?

I think the gender/orientation question shows up for women in sports because sports are/were seen as a male pastime. It's like an equation: "If man does not equal woman; if man equals sports; if X equals sports; then X equals man."

man=sports
X=sports
X=man

If the X happens to be a diminuative blonde named Chloe, then by the equation, Chloe must be a guy.

But if X (our Chloe) has all the female parts attached, then there has to be some other male factor involved -- either she's not really female, or she's a lesbian, the more butch, the better. The equation doesn't hold up to real scrutiny, but I'd bet a box of doughnuts that it is (or at least, was) the first thing that ran through many people's minds.

The equation goes the other way, of course. Stick men into a traditionally female-oriented equation, and you get the same results. For instance: "If woman does not equal man; if woman does equal house decorating; if X equals house decorating; then X equals woman." But if you have a guy who decorates professionally, then I bet the first thought through many people's minds is going to be, "Is he gay?"


Name:  Megan
Username:  mlasher@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend it like Beckham
Date:  2004-02-10 23:12:30
Message Id:  8111
Comments:
How does sport reflect the tensions between tradition and modernity, or the masculine and the feminine.

Which character do you most identify with? Why?

Sport reflects the tensions between tradition and modernity because of the tensions between masculinity and femininity. If women had played sports throughout history, there would not be the tensions between either of these things. They are very related. I think just getting a higher education is something that in some places (i.e. rural america) isn't very feminine, so I can identify with Jess in that respect. And I don't think that her and her sister were two different poles, Jess was still definitely interested in romance and things, she just was also concerned with other things instead of being so focused on just that.

Both Jess and Julie are passionate about playing soccer-and don't see their participation in gender terms yet their frinds and families relate to their participation through the lens of gender and in the case of Julie's mother, sexual orientation. Why does sport heighten the conversation re: gender and orientation for women and not for men? Are there other places in society this happens?

Sport creates this conversation for women because it's traditionally considered "masculine." A man would be evaluated in much the same way if he went into fashion or interior design because that's considered "feminine." I think the questions of sexual orientation are overlooked for men in sports because a male athlete cannot be admittedly gay, much like in the military. Just as questions of sexual orientation wouldn't be looked at if a woman went into a "feminine" job like fashion design or something.


Name:  Sarah Kim
Username:  skim@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  Bend It Like Beckham
Date:  2004-02-11 20:51:32
Message Id:  8122
Comments:
Why does sport heighten the conversation re: gender and orientation for women and not for men? Are there other places in society this happens?

I think Kat had a GREAT point. Even as I was reading her comment about a man being a decorator, I must admit that I was thinking "Well gay men are decorators..." But, I think that this is kind of obvious even in just the title of the film: Bend It Like Beckham, not Bend It Like Betty or Brittany... Jess's role model throughout the entire film wasn't even a woman, it was a man. I think that this is very significant. It shows the lack of really strong female role models in sports. Jess didn't even know that women COULD play professional football until her friend showed her the tapes of American women playing professionally.

You know, on this point, I remember this commercial for Gatorade, I think it was, where Mia Hamm was with Michael Jordan, and it was playing the song "Anything you can do, I can do better...I can do anything better than you...no you can't, yes I can, no you can't..." I think you guys know the song. And while I think that it's awesome that we ARE getting more female role models in athletics, I mean, Mia Hamm is just nowhere NEAR the level of Michael Jordan. That was a huge compliment to her, I feel like, but I think it was a reflection of society too. Because really, while Mia Hamm is a good athlete, Michael Jordan is a LEGEND. His legacy goes way beyond what ANY female athlete could claim to have at this point in time. And I think that it's very telling that while they DID run this commercial, I mean...they didn't even really HAVE a comparable female athlete. I feel like even though it was a good MESSAGE to send, they really didn't get the full force across because Mia Hamm is just not really even in the same league as Michael Jordan, I think. Feel free to disagree with me on this one, though! :)


Name:  Jenna Rosania
Username:  jrosania@brynmawr.edu
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-11 22:12:18
Message Id:  8126
Comments:
I agree with other people that sports and atheticism, even competition is and always has been seen as predominately male activities and qualities. Let's be a little silly and look at early hominids and their gender roles. According to Mr. Lovejoy's theory, the females stayed near the home, only gathering foods in the area where the children could follow or be easily watched. Meanwhile, free of the burden of taking care of the children, the males could travel for weeks, maybe months over great distances to hunt as much as they could carry back to the females, who would be so happy to see meat that they would be ok with letting the one with the most meat mate with her. So the idea is that it is ingrained in us from the behaviors of our most early ancestors that the women stay home, raise the kids, and give a little something-something back for the meat the men bring home, and the men can go off and compete with each other over who is the most skillful hunter, who is strong enough to carry the most meat, who gets the most recognition for their skills. This is of course a very sexist theory, but sexism was big in Anthropology during Lovejoy's time, and so was most of the rest of the world. This theory was the accepted one for a shameful number of years, and I think this is because it made sense to people who saw the resemblance in their own "modern" society. The Man the Hunter theory is only a manifestation of people's attitudes of what is natural behavior between genders, what is normal and functional. When women want more, they are questioning some very, very old notions that have seemed to work pretty well so far, considering the human race is doing quite well on the global scale. I think we can think of women doing what men are "supposed" to do as evolution, and for once, women are the ones leading the course to a more evolved species where women can do the family stuff as well as the athletic stuff. How can being able to do more be considered incorrect or unacceptable? That was really silly, but I think I've made my point.
Name:  Dustin Raup
Username:  Anonymous
Subject:  
Date:  2004-02-12 01:15:07
Message Id:  8132
Comments:
As much as I hate to admit it, Jenna has a good point. While original human societies tended to me matriarchal, women as a general rule got landed with the kids. This responsibility put them out of the physical running with men, who were responsible for running around and jumping and gathering food. The interesting exception to this is Sparta. Spartan females only raised their girls. If I remember correctly the boys were sent away around 5. Women in Sparta competed in their sports. The natural logical conclusion? When freed of some of the child-rearing responsibilities, women were able to explore roles not generally assiciated with their gender.

Why the sexual orientation issue is so unbalanced, I do not know. I do know that there was a stigma for female athletes at my high school but the boys on the football team could smack each others' butts all day and all night and still be the biggest, baddest, straightest guy ever born. Did it have something to do with running into other boys? This always confused me because as a softball player I ran into a lot of girls. Did that make me straight in the eyes of my peers? Nope. The only boys to face stigma were the wrestlers, who wear spandex, get sweaty and grope each other(unintentionally). It is understandable, however, being that wresting is very Greek and Greece has a reputation about its boys. Is it just the football player stereotype that allows them to shower together and maintain masculinity? The world may never know.




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