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Week 11--Why Talk with One Another?

Anne Dalke's picture
By showing how moral judgments are ex-post-facto explanations of moral intuitions, Haidt does a pretty good job of explaining "the futility of most moral arguments." How can you accomodate his research into your own upcoming search for an answer to an ethical dilemma?
jpfeiffer's picture

Haidt and Homelessness

The ethical dilemma that my group and I are working on for the final assignment is that of homelessness. We plan to explore homelessness both as an idea, and the reactions of others to homelessness. For example, how would you go about helping a homeless person, if at all helping them? We plan on discussing the numerous ways in which an individual can go about helping someone that is homeless. A section of the reading from this week that caught my attention and I feel is relevant to the topic of the final assigment is on page 4, Kohlberg's idea that, "children start as egoists, judging actions by the good or bad consequences they bring to the self. But as children's cognitive abilities expand, they develop the ability to "role-take", or see a situation from other people's perspectives". This reminds me of when I was younger, I would pass a homeless person on the street, yet sometimes I would only compare them to my parents, both of which work very hard to provide for my family. I would automatically assume that the homeless people were not working hard enough, and I would not cater to the idea that maybe they were working as hard as they possibly could, yet despite their efforts, they still could not make ends meet. However, as I matured, I became able to see the idea of homelessness from the perspective of a homeless person. I thought that maybe they were really making desperate attempts to try to find employment, or maybe they were seeking a means to provide for their family, yet their attempts did not prove to be successful. After volunteering at a soup kitchen, this idea was confirmed, as I realized that many of the "costumers" of the soup kitchen were no different than my parents with the excpetion that they found themselves homeless because of one circumstance or another.
jpfeiffer's picture

Haidt and Homelessness

The ethical dilemma that my group and I are working on for the final assignment is that of homelessness. We plan to explore homelessness both as an idea, and the reactions of others to homelessness. For example, how would you go about helping a homeless person, if at all helping them? We plan on discussing the numerous ways in which an individual can go about helping someone that is homeless. A section of the reading from this week that caught my attention and I feel is relevant to the topic of the final assigment is on page 4, Kohlberg's idea that, "children start as egoists, judging actions by the good or bad consequences they bring to the self. But as children's cognitive abilities expand, they develop the ability to "role-take", or see a situation from other people's perspectives". This reminds me of when I was younger, I would pass a homeless person on the street, yet sometimes I would only compare them to my parents, both of which work very hard to provide for my family. I would automatically assume that the homeless people were not working hard enough, and I would not cater to the idea that maybe they were working as hard as they possibly could, yet despite their efforts, they still could not make ends meet. However, as I matured, I became able to see the idea of homelessness from the perspective of a homeless person. I thought that maybe they were really making desperate attempts to try to find employment, or maybe they were seeking a means to provide for their family, yet their attempts did not prove to be successful. After volunteering at a soup kitchen, this idea was confirmed, as I realized that many of the "costumers" of the soup kitchen were no different than my parents with the excpetion that they found themselves homeless because of one circumstance or another.
ihe's picture

Haidt's argument is that

Haidt's argument is that people have gut reactions. He argues that moral intuition is then followed by moral reasoning. Our paper (Anna and Courtney) will create a gut reaction for the reader. This gut reaction will be strong, and as the reader reads through the paper, they will find that the paper facilitates their moral judgements by comparing the paper to their past experiences and what the society around them has taught them.  The paper serves as a tool for the reader, to see themselves through Haidt's argument.
yhongo's picture

What I found interesting

What I found interesting from this reading is the idea that "children's task is not to become like their parents but to fit into their peer group, for it is among peers that alliances must be formed and prestige garnered" (21). In a way I agree with this statement and I see it occur in our society today because especially for adolescents, "social life" is a big part of their lives and a lot of people are influenced by their peers opinions and views. So if a situation comes up, your gut feeling would probably be the same as your peers. However, after much thought and reflection, your opinion may differ and have a moral reasoning and explanation. 

I think this relates to my topic because growing up near NYC, my peers barely had any sympathy for the homeless and would not take time out of their schedule to even help out. I was one of those kids as well but after I volunteered at Soup Kitchens and other places, my perspective on the homeless has greatly changed.  

aybala50's picture

moral arguments

After reading Haidt's work it became clearer to me that arguing an opinion about a moral dilemma to the extent of forcing it upon someone else won't convince that person that your opinion is right. People have gut reactions to moral issues and changing these gut reactions are nearly impossible. People usually don't even have reasons for their belief in a moral dilemma, at least not one that can't be shot down with different logical arguments. Therefore, while writing our paper, Holly and I will give the two different sides of the argument. Since we have slightly different ideas, we are not really trying to convince our readers of a specific point they should believe in. 
akaltwasse's picture

Haidtin' on Genetic Testing (har har har)

I agree with Haidt that there is a sort of moral intuition ingrained in all of us.  Upon reading the brief story of the brother and sister commiting incest that proceeded the essay, I immediately had a gut reaction (that also provoked me to make a gagging noise aloud).  But even though my gut reaction said what Mark and Julie did was wrong, I saw that it, according to Haidt, caused no harm.  Ew.  And, to prove his point further, I could not find any other reason within myself that it was wrong other than that it just felt that way. 

Probably every group can apply Haidt's theory of an "it just is" type of morality existing within us.  My group is researching genetic testing, a topic which is probably more easily dismissable than, say, abortion or euthanasia, because it can be seen as an advancement in medicine.  Indeed it is, but not all "advancements" are right.  Someone posted that, yes, we can listen to our gut reaction, but sometimes to do what is actually right we need to apply reasoning.  Instictive morality, for some issues, is not enough.  For me, genetic testing is something I have mixed feelings about, but I'm sure further research (reasoning?) will make it clearer.

jfahl's picture

Euthanasia and Instinct

Haidt suggest that most moral arguements are based almost solely on intuition. This is interesting, but i don't think it applies on a larger scale. For real ethical dilemas instinct is only half of the equation. Our group dilema is Euthanasia. Because this topic literally plays with the life and suffering of another human being, instincnt only takes you so far. A gut reaction to a moral issue, doesn't neccesarily have to be your final decision on the problem. Reason, moral or otherwise, can play a part in the arguement process. That applies to issues, present or Ex-post-facto.
ebrennanpr's picture

Haidt & Welfare

The social institutionist model provided insight as to how often our moral judgments are based first and foremost on an instinctual, gut level and then are followed by thoughtful, careful deliberation.  In the case of welfare, this argument can be useful in the polarization of the debate.  Should the government be responsible for helping out the poor, or does the situation simply create a vicious cycle of attachment that leads to easy abuse?  When faced with these opposite moral stances, it becomes easy to derive our ideas from a priori knowledge instead of creating a rational basis. 
nmackow's picture

not futile.

I think the notion that most moral dilemmas are judged by a moral intuituion is interesting and rather true in most cases. This is the reason we have such large debates about subjects like abortion and incest and why it is so incredibly difficult to persuade someone to change their beliefs. However, I don't think that most moral arguments are "futile". With our topic, homelessness, we understand that most people already have their own idea as to how to deal with the destitute on the street. We won't try to force anyone to believe something, rather we will provide a wealth of information about the subject to allow for people to reevaluate their judgments.

eolecki's picture

Futility of Moral Arguments

I think the idea of ex-post-facto explanation is very interesting.  It makes perfect sense that there is just something innate within us that makes us believe certain things are immoral and in order to explain that we come up with reasons why we feel like that.  I think by using our gut reactions to our topics, and then researching we are clearly using this idea to write our final papers.  For a lot of people, no matter how much evidence they have against their gut reaction they won't change how they feel.  To me, this shows that people have feelings about certain issues and just find information to support what they think and disregard information that doesn't support it.  For my topic, genetic testing, my gut reaction was that I supported it, because I think new progressive ideas and scientific advancement is a good thing.  But there are a lot of bad consequences that can come along with it. 

Shoshi's picture

morality

I agree with Haidt that people make up reasons ex-post facto in order to support their initial gut reaction to a situation. However, there has to be a reason that they had that gut reaction,it may not be expalinable but that is because it is a gut reaction or 'intuition'. Not to be cliche, but they say always trust a womans intuition.  There is some base, possibly primal instinct that is so ingrained in who we are as a species that it affects a majority of our judgements without us realizing it. I agree that people come up with reasons afterwards that are ex post facto but I beleive that is because they have no words to explain their intuition.

I do not know how this will help in our apaers, other than we have to appeal to people's sense of judgement, and possibly twist things to make one side seem worse, because if they are already set in a certain mind set due to intuition it is going to be hard to sway them.

stephkim's picture

By showing how moral

By showing how moral judgments are ex-post-facto explanations of moral intuitions, Haidt does a pretty good job of explaining "the futility of most moral arguments." How can you accomodate his research into your own upcoming search for an answer to an ethical dilemma?

 

I feel that ethical dilemmas do not have a right/wrong answers; instead, they have pros and cons for each side. This is why it's so hard to find a solution to a given problem.

He states that moral reasoning is usually followed after a judgement is made. Perhaps this is especially true for ethical dilemmas - many form more pros and cons for each side after there has been a decision.

We should note the idea of compromise and how which side is to work with the other to negociate to maximize the satisfaction for both arguments.

msmith07's picture

You Tail Wagger, You.

While I'm still not thoroughly convinced that "genetic testing" is an actual ethical dilemma, I'm sure, somehow, it can apply to this reading.

"The Emotional Dog and its Rational Tail" gave me two things: a headache, and hope that someone's opinions can ultimately be changed, seeing as they are not actually based in reason. There is the possibility still to convince a stubborn person of your own mindset, be it by befriending them and using the "morals by association" technique, or through giving them the tools to personally reflect and change their own opinions.

lwacker's picture

Haidt and Euthanasia

By showing how moral judgments are ex-post-facto explanations of moral intuitions, Haidt does a pretty good job of explaining "the futility of most moral arguments."  

 Yes I would say that this is fairly true statement. I do believe that people make many, maybe even most, of their moral judgements, be they fundamentally moral or not, that are simply rooted in their most basic instincts. Haidt recognizes this human power as intuitions into which we are individually and collectively cued to the same moral judgement. Moral reasoning here is the interesting part. How people decide to argue their instinctive(ly different) moral judgments  is where deviation occurs and perhaps one is really able to get down to what a truly moral response to something would have been had people been unaffected by outside influences etc. It would perhaps be interested to look at why people argue Euthanasia certain ways when if they are already so dead set on the subject they wouldn't need to even go about morally reasoning out their position. 

lwscott's picture

is a solution possible?

I think Haidt's argument fits in verywell with Michelle and my ethical dilemma about whether or not to make thedecision to help those less fortunate.  In an examination of young adultsTuriel, Hildebrandt, and Wainry discovered that “people who judged the actionsto be moral violations also talked about harmful consequences, whereas peoplewho thought the actions were not wrong generally cited no harmfulconsequences.” In trying to decide if it is humanities responsibility toprovide aid to the less fortunate or those in need, Michelle and I have are tryingto consider the consequences of that help. We are speculating that help incertain situations, can be harmful or helpful. If you give a homeless man$20you don’t know if he will use it to buy drugs, which would be harmful or go buyhimself food, which would be helpful. Philosopher Hume states that, “unless wecare…unless with have some sentiment…reason alone cannot advise against takingthe action.” If a person doesn’t have compassion for those less fortunate thenthey aren’t going to take action to help them. Some people feel that in manycases it is a person’s own fault for becoming homeless and that helping him isonly fueling his lack of motivation. Haidt states that "moral reasoning isan effortful process, engaged in after a moral judgment is made, in which aperson searches for arguments that will support an already-made argument."To me, this means that it would be difficult to change one's moral reasoning.It sounds as though a person's mind will already be made up and that it doesn'tmatter if their argument is incoherent because they won't change their opinion.This makes me feel as if there is no solution to my ethical dilemma becausepeople are simply going to make up their mind whether or not to help the poorand there will be no changing of their mind.

lraphael's picture

moral judgments "evaluations

moral judgments "evaluations (good versus bad) of the actions or character of a person that are made with respect to a set of virtues held by a culture or subculture to be obligatory." 

moral reasoning "conscious mental activity that consists of transforming given information about people in order to reach a moral judgement"

moral intuition "the sudden appearance in consciousness of a moral judgment, including an affective valence (good-bad, like-dislike), without any conscious awareness of having gone through steps of search, weighing evidence, or inferring a conclusion"

 

In my opinion these three tie together my (and Malli's) ethical dilemma. We are going to write about medical termination of pregnancies and second trimester abortions. We bring up issues like "who decides when it is okay to abort the pregnancy?" "what makes a child "normal" or "ill"?" So I feel like we all go through those three definitions above when we are confronted with an ethical issue, and Malli and I are trying to go through the moral thought processes to understand more where the line becomes fuzzy for the medical termination of pregnancies and second trimester abortions. 

hwiencek's picture

is instinct universal or relative?

My paper (with Aybala of course) this week has gone more from the dilemma of what a good parent is and who should be allowed to decide who may or may not have children to more of a question if a so called "good parent" is a relative term across cultures or has (or should have?) a universal definition.  I think Haidt's argument has a very interesting relationship to this question in terms of the idea of instinct.  When reading the article I wasn't sure if he sees instinct as universal across cultures.  I guess to me it seems that instinct is something that humans as a species share--not something that humans within one specific culture share.  I brought this up during my meeting with Anne today and she countered that there can be "learned instincts."  I'm not sure how I feel about this...  If instincts can be learned then don't they have some sort of cultural background and therefore reason behind them?...in which case reason is not futile, but the cause of that "gut reaction" that we've been discussing.

As far as accommodating his research into finding an answer to my own dilemma I almost feel like...well, what's the point?  If ethical decisions are made instinctually, then people's opinions cannot be changed (because they're not even opinions! they're...basically facts), so why try to find a solution?  Maybe I'm just very cynical...

 

cantaloupe's picture

I agree with Haidt that

I agree with Haidt that most moral arguments are useless.  People are not going to hear an argument that goes completely against their gut instinct and think "wow, this person is right."  Therefore, our current papers on an ethical dilemma can't just be us forcing our opinion onto our reader.  No matter how right I think my moral point of view is, it is useless to argue.  So, similar to Emily's posting, I believe that compromise is the most important part of answering an ethical dilemma.  There needs to be aspects of the solution that everybody can understand and agree with, regardless of moral intuitions.  However, I’m not sure that anything can really be “solved.”  Isa, Anna and I struggled with how to solve our ethical dilemma.  Instead, we decided to shock everyone’s moral argument with practical arguments put into the extreme.

Yellow's picture

Haidt:

In summary, in issues of moral dilemmas that involve the body, obvious reactions are of disgust because one imagines oneself in the situation, and the "gut reaction" takes place. But I question Haidt's use of intuition- which conjures up images to me of inner knowledge and foresight, whereas here it is used as the so-called "split second" judgements, that perhaps are passed down in society through religion or parental beliefs. For instance, thinking that Julie and Mark's love making is bad because of our biblical prohibition of incest for genetic reasons is based in society's laws, not automatic "ewww" from our own sense. Because of this, I have a problem with Haidt's social intutionist model, and I will not be incorporating it into my paper as a general non zero sum maker. Instead, my paper with Isa and Courtney works to create the gut reaction by shocking the reader and questioning ideas of political correctness and our judgement system by using reasonable arguments that seem disgusting.

As a side note, I've read some of Haidt's work and even taken some of his tests on yourmorals.org, which put people in bins of republican and democrat and you answer a few questions on purity, chastity, etc and rate how important they are to you, and then it releases a graph showing how you stand against people in your political party and in the opposite. For me, I was in my own category, far more left than the democrats that took the test too, but I don't think my political compass is necessarily about morals, more about politics. I don't know how to explain. 

mkmerrill's picture

support your argument

In my search for an answer to my ethical dilemma on welfare and abusing the system, I was basing what I thought was a good solution on my moral judgement. After reading The Emotional Dog and it's Rational Tail and Haidt's explanation for the "futility of moral arguments" I think it is very imporant to address both points of view; that of the tax payer and that of those receiving welfare (both those who use it and those who abuse it). In doing so I can try to escape the "I don'tknow" answer by presenting facts to support my choice. If after researching I find that my solution is still the same then I will be able to support my stance on the topic of welfare abuse.

mcchen's picture

Haidt and ethical dilemmas

Haidt's research says that reason alone cannot accomodate for people making ethical decisions so unless we cared about the topic or had a personal connection to it, a decision may not even be reached.  For my topic about helping others that are less fortunate, reason alone does not suffice because it is through caring that help is administered.  Since we are driven by our intuition our reasoning for making a decision is based upon that initial "gut reaction".  Therefore when addressing my question about whether or not help should be given to those less fortunate, it would be best to try and answer different questions unrelated to my "gut reaction" and to expore the other side of the argument.  I think there's an answer to an ethical dilemma but there is no correct or incorrect answer, everything is up for interpretation.  There may not just be a single answer but a number of possibilities to choose from. 
emily's picture

the only way to really win an argument is to compromise

As mentioned in the topic heading, Haidt does a pretty good job of explaining "the futility of most moral arguments". I think this goes pretty well with our assignment to find an answer to an ethical dilemma. Since someone with a really strong point of view can never change someone else's strong opposite position on the issue, no extreme solution on one end of the spectrum or the other can be found. This is why finding an answer to an ethical dilemma requires compromising all points of view. There can never be one answer to a moral dilemma that fully satisfies everyone because everyone has their own moral intuitions, based socially or not. So, the best answer to an ethical dilemma is to try to accomodate both sides; you might not be happy with one aspect of the decision, but at least you agree with some of it. While Sara and I are not really working together to answer an ethical dilemma, more just reasoning where it is the most fair in a society for choices and decisions about ethical dilemmas to lie, we must find a balance between the two ends of the spectrum, individual choice and social choice on a global level, to accomodate all opinions.
abhattacha's picture

TOEING THE MORAL LINE

I think that each one of us has a core morality - a set of central attitudes which prescribes/disallows certain ways of thinking , feeling , and acting NO MATTER WHAT .

In addition to this core morality ,  we have , what I can best describe as , a  peripheral morality . We stick to our moral principles - core and peripheral , in most life situations . In crunch situations , however , peripheral morality might be dispensed with , but never core morality .
If I were a member of the ill-fated Uruguayan Rugby team , I would have taken my chances and chosen not to eat my companions . I might have been killed by my friends who did , because compromising with even peripheral morality is painful and the compromiser does not want to be morally flagellated by reminders of his compromise . But a quick death would have been infinitely more preferable than a slow , painful one from revulsion at choosing/resorting to  cannibalism to survive . Cannibalising companions to survive was peripheral morality for them , but core morality for me . I would have eaten something I had found without sharing it with my starving friends - I hate myself for it , but that would have been peripheral morality for me .
Morality is predominantly learnt without either the teachers ( parents/elders/teachers/oneself ) or the taught being aware of it . Morality - core + peripheral , forms moral intuition . It is a kind of emotional grammar which switches on instantly , and subconsciously , in a situation requiring a moral judgment . It is deeply personal . Rationalist decision - making models do not take us very far because they need to account for the infinite variety of individual moral responses , which the individual is not even aware of . He has to think to put his moral stance into words if he has to explain it to himself or to his csem class . 
Does my choice of an ethical dilemma to research involve my core or peripheral morality ? Am I searching for an answer to a question that has already been answered by my moral intuition without my thinking about it ? And if it is so , will I then choose only that data or point of view which is in sync with my answer ? Will I choose to make ex-post-facto explanations of my moral intuitions ? That is the only answer I have at this point in time - I have to CHOOSE .    
Anne Dalke's picture

The Cultural Commons

Another note (of help, I hope) as you get to work on the collaborative projects we've asked you to produce over the next few weeks...a NYTimes Magazine interview with Lewis Hyde, this weekend, called What is Art For? Turns out Hyde has been working, the past ten years, on re-writing the intellectual history of this country, from one of isolated geniuses to one of a "cultural commons," in which we can all participate. Lotsa great quotes in the article, but here's my favorite:

“It takes a capacious mind to play host to…others and to find new ways to combine what they have to offer....a mind willing to be taught, willing to be inhabited, willing to labor in the cultural commons.”

mmg's picture

Argue well

I can see the rationale behind Haidt's argument and now that I think of it, yes, people do undertake ex-post-facto explanations of moral intuitions. Yet, there can be ways to overcome the "futility of moral arguments"

In his article he mentions the reasoned persuasion link that 'works not by providing logically compelling arguments, but by triggering new affectively valenced intuitions in the listener'. This would work as a way to get your side of the argument into the other side. Since people only listen to what validates or proves something they already believe in, we can tailor our argument such that it can convince people in a subtle but effective manner, by appealing to their judgement, yet sticking really to your own.

 

Haidt also mentions that to be one has to reason like a lawyer, not present the truth, but defend your argument. If people are presented with other sides or 'roles' in the argument they change their mind. If one is meant to empathize with a certain person in a situation they were morally against they can turn their favor towards it by putting themselves in their shoes.

 

I believe that these and other techniques make moral arguments interesting and challenging, and far from futile.

SaraO's picture

So what?

I am not about to try to deny what Haidt is saying. We have gut intuitions which we often act on. Yet at the same time, we have the ability to stop before we act, and consider another course of action that our gut did not necessarily determine. For my paper, I discussed our natural intuition to not want to pay higher prices for environmentally friendly products. At the same time, I talked about paying those higher prices because I want a healthier planet. So I considered my gut, and then I went with the action that was the result of rational thought. I'm also not saying to deny your gut at all times. It can be a very useful guiding light when rationality does not point you in a certain direction. I'm just proposing that when it comes to the bigger decisions in our lives, especially those of which the ramifications will greatly effect others that we stop a minute to think before we act.